A Refutation of Dr. Jamal Badawi's Islamic Apologetics Series K (Package 8)

Islamic Apologetics (Series K)

July 2004 version

Note: Not only are Dr. Badawi's arguments fallacious, but a knowledgeable Muslim, on close examination of Dr. Badawi's teaching, might not want Badawi's deviations from Muslim orthodoxy spread.

Islamic Teachings (Jamal A. Badawi)

Package 8 : Jesus : Beloved Messenger of Allah (16 tapes)

Tape #1 Introduction

a) There are many Suras about Jesus (including his birth, etc.) Sura 19:19ff. (palm-tree, ripe dates, etc.)

b) Badawi says there are 124,000 prophets

c) Badawi says the five purest of the pure prophets were: Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Mohammed. Badawi says the souls of the prophets continue to live. Mohammed said he is the nearest of kin to Jesus in the world.

d) Badawi quotes the "Rev. Armstrong" as if he were a Christian authority and source.

a) Of the 114 suras, 11 mention Jesus.

None of them have negative references about Jesus, except saying that He is not the son of God.

b) From here on, it is interesting to observe as Badawi leaves the Qur'an and enters into the hadiths of Sunni Islam. Some Sunni Muslims say they mainly follow just the Qur'an, yet they believe many things that are not taught in the Qur'an, only the Sunni hadiths. Often they are not even aware of what they believe based on the Qur'an verses based on the hadiths.

c) Badawi is giving the results of Muslim opinions here, as this is not in the Qur'an, or the hadiths of al-Bukhari or Sahih Muslim.

Everyone's soul continues to live. A less obvious point behind Badawi's obvious statement though, is that more recent Islam has greatly elevated prophethood to sinless perfection. This concept is not in early Islam.

In the hadiths Mohammed claims he is nearest of kin to Jesus.

d) Would it be proper, or a falsehood for someone to say, "Muslims worship 'Ali and believe in a "trinity": that is Mohammed, 'Ali, and Saliman al-Farisi." After all, 'Alawite Muslim sect believe this. Yet 'Alawites, as few as there are, make up a larger percent of those who call themselves Muslims, than the non-Trinitarian followers of Herbert W. Armstrong make up of those who call themselves Christians. Shame on you, Badawi.

Tape #2 Jesus in Islam III, His Nature

a) Sura 5:73 denies the doctrine of the Trinity.

b) Sura 3:45, Badawi says Jesus is sinless and close to Allah but Badawi says all prophets are sinless, citing John the Baptist having "purity" in Sura 19:13.

c) Badawi defines the word "pure" and its meaning which would include all the prophets.

d) Badawi says Mohammed's mission was for the world. In contrast the missions of all other prophets (including Jesus) were not for the world but for a specific time, people, and place.

e) Jesus' message the same as other prophets - just follow Allah.

f) Claims Jesus' Injil (Gospel) was different than we have today.

a) Many think this was derived from what are called "infancy apocryphal gospels" made up centuries later about Jesus. These were available in the Mideast. Sura 5:73-75,116 identifies the three as Father, Jesus, and the Virgin Mary. This is a gross misunderstanding of the Trinity. There was apparently a small sect in Arabia called Collyridians that believed Mary was a goddess.

b) Many modern Muslims believe that since Jesus was sinless, Mohammed must have been also. However, in Sura 40:55 and 48:1-2 Allah Mohammed to ask forgiveness for his sin (or frailty.) Regardless of how someone wishes to define or redefine the word for sin/frailty here, it is inescapable that Mohammed had things for which he needed to ask forgiveness. What kinds of things could those be? Here are some clues: Sahih Muslim vol.1 1695 says Mohammed prayed, "I wronged myself and make a confession of my sin. Forgive all my sins,..." Bukhari, vol.1:7,19,711, 781; vol.6:3; vol.8:319, and vol.8:407 prior also mention Mohammed's sins. Specific things mentioned in the Bukhari vol.1:234 vol.8:794, 795 include cutting off people's limbs, burning out their eyes, and making them thirst as they died after their limbs were amputated. See Bukhari vol.8:796,797; vol.6:198 prior, as well as Fiqh us-Sunnah vol.1 p.133.

c) This is especially interesting, as Muslims consider Adam a prophet too. So if Adam was always pure, yet he sinned and got kicked out of the Garden of Eden, purity has been robbed of its meaning.

d) Contrary to what Badawi and many Muslims today say, Jesus in the Gospels said He was the light of the world. 1 John 2:1 also says that Jesus was the atoning sacrifice for the whole world. Obviously, if someone rejects the record of the Gospels and the New Testament, they can make up what they want about Jesus.

e) Jesus said that if someone loves Him, they will obey His teaching. If you

e1) do not listen to Jesus' teaching

e2) Believe God for centuries only gave His followers a corrupt version of Jesus' teaching,

Then people who do the opposite of what God's prophet said need to innovate a new version of what Jesus taught.

f) It is not that Badawi and most Muslims believe this: rather they HAVE to believe this, or Islam falls. Do you agree that

If Jesus taught the true God's message as God's prophet

A later "prophet" contradicts Jesus' genuine teaching from God,

Then the later "prophet" is from a false god.

However, many Muslims (including perhaps Badawi) are unaware that 'Aisha contradicts them. 'Aisha was Mohammed's second-most beloved wife, and she would know what Mohammed learned better than anyone else. She said that Mohammed was taught the Injil (gospels) according to both Bukhari vol.4:605 and Sahih Muslim vol.1:301 p.98, where she tells that Khadija took Mohammed to a Christian convert who used to read the Gospels in Arabic. In contrast to Badawi, the (Muslim) Qur'anic commentator Fazlur Rahman also acknowledges that the gospel we (and Mohammed) have is the Injil. Finally, Sura 5:46 says that Christians are the people of the gospel.

f2) It is fair for a Muslim to ask at this point: what evidence is there that we have the genuine Injil (Gospel) preserved today?

Here are three simply means

Early manuscripts: We have copies of the Gospels from 125-175 A.D. They have the same meaning we have in the Greek manuscripts today. We are certain of about 97.3% of every word in the New Testament. If there were any corruption of the message of the gospels, it could not have been after that time.

Early Christians: Many early Christians quoted, paraphrased, and wrote commentaries on the gospels and the New Testament. The earliest two writers were 97/98 and 100 A.D.

An early heretic: Tatian was an Encratite Gnostic who wrote the "Diatessaron", a harmony of the gospels where he omitted the parts that showed the humanity of Jesus. If he could have found a different reputable gospel to copy from he had an incentive to do so, being a heretic. Yet, his Diatessaron is nearly word for word identical with the gospel the Christians preserved.

Faith in God: God promised to preserve His word in Isaiah 55:10-11; 59:21; 1 Peter 1:24-25; Matthew 24:35. As a Muslim, do you believe Allah only gave his followers corrupted words to follow, for centuries, until Mohammed fixed Allah's failure to preserve His word?

f3) What evidence do Muslims bring up suggesting we do not have Jesus' genuine teaching?

1. Just as the Qur'an of 'Ubai, 'Uthman's recension, and Ibn Masud have differences in the Arabic, the gospels have manuscript variations too. No manuscript variation changes Christian theology at all though.

2. There are four gospels, not one, and they give different details. Sentences are repeated in the Qur'an, with different parts before and after. Futhermore, accepted hadiths give many details of Mohammed's revelations not found in the Qur'an. However, not having some detail in the Qur'an does not prove it wrong or invalid. Likewise not having details in a particular gospel does not prove it wrong either. All of the gospels can be harmonized together though. You can see a harmonization at www.muslimhope.com\BibleAnswers\gospels.html

3. Some parts in the gospels are in different order. In The Qur'an, some Suras have verses that were given in Mecca and some in Medina. Other suras we do not know where or when they were given. That does not invalidate them though.

4. Different English translations of the Bible use different words. (Yes, some Muslims have actually said this.) Would all of them leave Islam though, once they found out different English translations of the Qur'an use different words too?


Tape #3 The End of Jesus' Mission

a) The Qur'an does not need to be confirmed by anyone, Badawi says, including scholars, historians, etc.

b) Sura 4:157-158 says Jesus was not crucified. Badawi says that Jesus was saved by God and will die after he returns again.

c) Badawi sees "no need of a physical resurrection of Jesus"

d) Badawi quotes this Gospel of Barnabas to prove Jesus was not crucified.

e) Badawi says Jesus never claimed to be God or the "Son of God".

a) In the Middle East, as in India, America, and Europe, there are "cultish" (or Ghulat) groups that all say their book or teaching needs no confirmation. Badawi's statement could be said by a Bektashi, 'Alawite, Druze, or Sufi, as well as a Hare Krishna or Moonie.

b) Muslims agree that Jesus was a prophet who was betrayed by Judas. Most importantly, they also agree that Jesus appeared to be crucified on the cross, but most Muslims say that God miraculously "fooled" everyone by switching the bodies of Jesus and Judas. Thus it was Judas, not Jesus, who was really crucified. Jesus escaped and according to both the Qur'an (Sura 3:55; 4:158) and most Muslims, Jesus ascended to Heaven. (Ahmaddiya Muslims deny this part and say Jesus traveled to India, married, and died there.)

Dr. Jamal Badawi here apparently has a different view than most Muslims, however. He denies the historicity of all appearances of Jesus after His crucifixion. I am not sure if Badawi thinks Jesus ascended to heaven immediately, or if he were on earth for while, but nobody recorded any appearance of Him. Jesus coming through a locked door (John 20:19) is not an issue, because Jesus having a miracle of a glorified body does not negate it also being physical and doing things like eating (Luke 24:42-43). As for Jesus appearing initially unrecognized (Luke 24:15), Badawi has to recognize that not only can people with different clothes be unrecognized, but God can make people be unrecognized when He wants them to be.

c) The crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus is mentioned in nearly every church father from 97/98 A.D. on, and is in the manuscripts of the New Testament we have from 150 A.D. on. Do you agree that one of the following has to be true?

c1) There was a catastrophic failure of Allah to rightly guide his followers for the almost 600 years before Mohammed.

c2) The Qur'an and Mohammed taught a very significant lie here.

d) How much should a Muslim trust Dr. Badawi here? While the Qur'an says Jesus was the Messiah, the Gospel of Barnabas (written in Italian in the Middle Ages, probably by a new/confused Muslim) contradicts the Qur'an saying the Messiah is not Jesus but Mohammed.

e) How does Dr. Badawi know what Jesus said? We could read the gospels ourselves (in either a translation or the original Greek), but if Badawi will not believe those what good would it do? Jesus directly, in His own words, affirmed Peter's great confession that Jesus was the Son of the Living God. This is in Matthew 16:13-20; Mark 8:27-30; and Luke 9:18-20. Also, independent of what Jesus said, Jesus accepted worship. If Jesus' disciples (spoken of approvingly in the Qur'an) worshipped Jesus in Matthew 14:33, the women worshipped Jesus in Matthew 28:9, and the blind man worshipped Jesus in John 9:38, you should worship Him too.

Tape #4 The Second Coming of Jesus

a) Badawi relates the generic Islamic version of the return of Jesus.

b) Jesus will return (Sura 43:61 and Sura 4:159) and is related in at least 70 hadiths (ex. Sahih al-Bukhari vol.3 no.425 'break the cross and kill the pigs'). Cross-Christianity is wrong.

c) Eating pigs is wrong, and the law should be restored.

d) Jesus will come down when there is great evil and the anti-Christ is ruling on the earth. Jesus will come down in the eastern part of Damascus near a white tower wearing two yellow garments. He will be of medium height, or reddish and fair complexion, and his hair will look like water is trickling down it even though it is not wet. He will come down at dawn (daybreak) and descend into the middle of the Muslim army that is getting ready to fight the anti-Christ (dajjal) and his armies. Jesus will slay the anti-Christ and the anti-Christ's armies will be destroyed. Jesus will kill the anti-Christ at Lud (13 kilometers from Tel Aviv) and then Jesus will go on a pilgrimage to the Ka'aba in Mecca. Jesus will then live about 45 years, get married, have kids, and be buried near Mohammed. Jesus' resurrection will come some time after that.

a) Actually there is a Shi'ite version of the endtimes that is much more extensive than this.

b) "Cross-Christianity" is in the New Testament that God chose to preserve from the very earliest manuscripts we have for at least 600 years.

If Cross-Christianity was a world-wide "failure" of Allah to preserve His word, can Dr. Badawi blame Jesus' early followers for being what he calls "cross-Christians" by following what God gave to them?

c) Why do Dr. Badawi and the hadiths mention pigs but not camels? In the Old Testament it is just as wrong to eat camel meat (which Mohammed ate) as it is to eat pig meat. A Muslim might argue that Mohammed, being a prophet of God, had the right to announce God's "abrogation" of the earlier restriction. Is so, then perhaps he needs to understand that the sinless prophet Jesus had the same right. All foods were pronounced clean, so it seems Allah inconsistent that Mohammed is returning to the previous restriction.

d) Part of this is apparently taken from the end-times teaching of the New Testament, mixed with fanciful things. As a side note, while Christ's return and the dajjal are in the Qur'an, other details Dr. Badawi mentions are not, but are in the Sunni hadiths.

Tape #5 Comparative Christology I

a) Badawi says there is not a single Qur'anic that is unfavorable to Jesus.

b) Badawi says the Qur'an shows more respect for Jesus than the New Testament.

c) Badawi does an apologetic why the Qur'an does not teach that Jesus is God. Badawi here tries to deal with verses in the Qur'an that he says some Christians try to use to show the divinity of Christ such as Jesus being called "holy", "pure", "spirit from Allah", "A Word from Allah", "anointed"

d) The Qur'an clearly states that Jesus was only a messenger, a prophet and a faithful servant of Allah.

e) Badawi states that Jesus is "a" word from Allah, not the Word (logos) as found in John 1:1.

a) While there are none that are negative about his person, there are some that call His words that God preserved a lie.

b) This is false, as the New Testament honors Jesus as God the Son, and the Qur'an denies this respect.

c) Agreed, calling someone pure or anointed in Islam does not mean they are God.

d) If you are a Muslim, imagine for a second that someone tried to tell you that the Qur'an clearly stated that Jesus was God. What would you do? You might pick up your Qur'an and read it to them; they respond that all the Qur'ans today are corrupt. You might show that we have Qur'ans preserved over 1000 years old; they respond that those are corrupt too. You might mention the tradition of the hadiths, the early commentators, al-Tabari, An-Nawawi, Ibn Ishaq, Wakidi, and you can go on and on and on, showing they all give a consistent picture that Mohammed and the Qur'an taught that Jesus is not God. You have to reject this person's view not just because you are Muslim, but simply because you want to be a rational, objective person. Ultimately, this person would have to agree with you that the Qur'an taught that Jesus is not God, or else retreat into "an apathy toward truth".

Now change the situation, substituting "Bible" for "Qur'an", "1900 years" for "1000 years", and "early church writings" for "hadiths and early commentators". Hopefully now you can understand why we have to reject the claims that Jesus and his earliest disciples did not claim to be God (such as in being worshipped), Jesus did not die on the cross, rise from the dead, etc. We do not reject these false claims just because we are Christian, but simply to be a rational, objective person.

e) The Qur'an does not define, either way, the significance of Jesus being "word from Allah", so some could view (or mis-view) this as saying Jesus was "the word" from Allah. Others might see this ambiguous "ease of misunderstanding" here as intentional in the Qur'an.

Tape #6 Claims Attributed to Jesus and Approach of Study

a) Badawi states that he is trying to be as unbiased as possible!

b) Badawi begins a run down of deity of Christ Bible verses so he can attempt to refute them such as

Matthew 7:28-29 - Authority

John 7:45-47 - Never saw someone speak like that

Badawi dismisses all the following because "Paul said these"

Colossians 2:9 - all the fullness of deity dwells bodily

Philippians 2:10 - At the name of Jesus every knee shall bow

1 Timothy 3:16 - Jesus is God manifested in the flesh

Colossians 1:15-17 - Jesus was the image of God

John 1:1-2 - The word of God - John said

c) Badawi says most of the deity of Christ references are made by Paul who never saw Jesus during Jesus' ministry and John whose Gospel is subject to a great deal of skepticism by Biblical scholars as to whether it was really written by John or someone else.

d) Badawi says these witnesses to the deity of Christ are unreliable because many religions have leaders whose leaders were deified by their followers whether the leaders claimed deity or not (such as Buddha, etc.)

e) Badawi does not believe any Biblical references where Jesus claims deity because the so-called Gospels were written by someone else, and there is no evidence that Jesus himself made those claims.

f) Badawi claims there is nowhere in the New Testament that Jesus speaks and says "he is God, worship Me."

g) Badawi says the Old Testament says there is only one God.

h) Badawi says the deity of Christ verses are subject to interpretation and in the "context of the Bible" cannot mean divinity of Jesus!

i) Badawi mentions the Bible says that no one has even seen God.

j) Strangely, Badawi frequently quotes Bible verses that quote the word "Father".

a) Nobody who uncritically yet selectively refers to the Italian Gospel of Barnabas of the Middle Ages, or who quotes the leader of a very small unorthodox sect as referring to Christians, can honestly call themselves unbiased.

b) Badawi mentions many of the verses that merely indicate Jesus might be divine, without referencing the verses that prove Jesus is God to be worshipped.

In particular in the rest of the New Testament:

Philippians 2:5 Jesus and the Father have the same nature

Hebrews 1:6 Jesus is rightfully worshipped by God's holy angels

Hebrews 1:8,9 Jesus is rightfully called God

Acts 7:7-59-60 Jesus is prayed to

Colossians 1:16,17 Everything in the world was created and sustained through Christ

Colossians 1:19 The fullness of deity is in Jesus

2 Corinthians 11:3; Titus 2:13 Jesus is called God.

Revelation 5:8-9; 22:20 Worshipped in Heaven.

c) Paul was especially selected by Jesus, saw Jesus in a vision, and was accepted by the other apostles, so you cannot try to make adversaries of people who were respected friends.

Yes, John emphasizes the divinity of Christ more than the other gospels, but it is specious to claim more emphasis in one proves silence in the others. As a matter of fact, John's message is consistent with the worship of Jesus, and Jesus forgiving sins against God in:

Matthew 8:2; 9:2-6; 14:33; 28:9,17

Mark 2:5-12

Luke 5:20-23; 24:52.

d) Yes, Buddha and others have been deified after their death, but some, such as Roman Caesars clearly taught they were gods while they were alive too. Jesus accepted worship in the gospels, and if the Gospel record is reliable, Badawi has no point here.

e) Badawi has some interesting logic here. By the same logic, there is no evidence Mohammed said anything for everything Mohammed said was written down by someone else, since Mohammed most probably could not write. Now if Dr. Badawi thinks a follower of Mohammed could truthfully write down what he said, but no follower of Jesus could truthfully write down what Jesus said, he is being inconsistent here.

f) Someone can say nowhere in the Qur'an are the words "Jesus is not God" either. However, the meaning of words of the Qur'an, and the lack of acceptance of the worship of Jesus, conclusively show the Qur'an teaches not to worship Jesus.

In the Bible,

John 8:58 Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" The word "I am," was the divine name of God, used countless times in the Old Testament. This word "YHWH" in Hebrew, is explained as the "personal name" of God in Exodus 3:14-15, 20:5; Isaiah 42:8; 44:6, this personal name of God has been lost to Muslims. Now the Jews either understood Jesus' communication correctly when they picked up stones to stone Him, or else they misunderstood Jesus' communication. Jesus could have said "there is a mistake here, you misunderstand me. I do not claim to be God like you say." However, there is no record of Jesus ever saying there was any mistake. On the contrary, we have records of the apostles, as well as their disciples, reiterating that Jesus is God.

Right before this in John 8:24b, Jesus said to the Pharisees, "if you do not believe that I am the One I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins." Dear Muslim, do you want to believe that Jesus is who He really claimed to be?

Jesus affirmed that He was God in John 20:28: And Thomas said to Jesus, "My Lord and my God!" Jesus replied to Thomas, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." Jesus has no hint of rebuke toward Thomas. Indeed, the only remotely negative thing Jesus said is that those who have not seen Jesus in person and believe (this about Jesus) are more blessed than those who have seen Jesus and believe this. Now either

a) Thomas was wrong, and he sinned by calling Jesus God, and perhaps Jesus sinned by accepting this and not rebuking Thomas, or

b) Jesus was right to affirm what Thomas said.

Do you agree that either: They were both right, or that Thomas and Jesus were both wrong?

Jesus would send His angels in Matthew 13:41, which are the angels of God (Luke 12:8-9; 15:10).

Jesus said he would judge the world (Matthew 24:31-46, 25:31-3; John 5:21-22, 27). Yet it is God who is coming to judge the world (Psalm 50:1-6; Joel 3:12; Deuteronomy 32:35)

A non-Christian might wonder if these verses were somehow added much later. However, an ancient Bible manuscript called the Bodmer II Papyrii (125-175 A.D.), has preserved John 1:1-6:11; 6:35b-14:26; 14:29-30; 15:2-26; 16:2-4, 6-7; 16:10-20:20; 20:22-23; 20:25-21:9; 21:12,17.

g) Christians and the New Testament also say there is only one True God. Badawi neglects to mention that even in the Old Testament in Proverbs 30:4f, it speaks of the name of God's son.

h) This logic is interesting, as it is equally effective to say the Qur'anic verses are subject to interpretation. Did you know, for example, the many Muslims (especially 'Alawites and some Sufis) interpret the Qur'an and say that drinking wine is OK. The truth is every statement of every document is subject to interpretation, if you are dishonest enough to overlook the plain meaning.

i) Badawi perhaps forgot that John 1 explains this. No one has seen God, but God came to earth as a man. No one did see God in His glory in the Old Testament, but God did a new thing, coming wrapped in humanity, veiling much of His glory in the New.

j) It is curious that Badawi quotes many Bible verses that use the word "Father" yet Islam is firm that Allah is not a Father, and Allah has no children. We have Bible manuscripts preserved today among the Dead Sea scrolls that mention God as Father. These are before the time of Christ. Often a person has to be willing to accept the truth that has first been revealed "that God is a Father" before they can accept subsequent truth.

Tape #7 More on "Claims"

a) Badawi does not believe John's vision in the Book of Revelation. He says someone who has visions may not be reliable or accurate. - Mohammed claimed to have had visions too.

b) In John 8:58 Badawi says that Jesus existed only in the mind of God.

c) Badawi likes to quote only the Revised Standard Version of the Bible.

d) Badawi quotes what he calls Biblical Scholarship such as John Fenton.

e) Badawi says there seems to be a deliberate attempt by Biblical writers in the New Testament to put Jesus in a different category, than others before him such as David, as Badawi says the term Messiah means "deliverer" or "anointed" and that term can apply to others.

f) The word "perfect" does not mean perfect according to Badawi, just human.

g) The term "son of God" is used of many people in the Bible and therefore Jesus being the "Son of God" cannot be a reference to divinity. The term "Lord" is used in 1 Corinthians 8:5 ("lords many") and therefore Jesus being called "Lord" is nothing unique.

h) Badawi is tired of hearing Christians quote John 14:6 (The way, truth, life), he says it does not mean what Christians believe it means.

a) By what criteria is Dr. Badawi dismissing Revelation? Mohammed claimed to have had visions. If you discount John because he had a vision from God, that reason would discount Mohammed too!

b) God knows all the future, so everyone existed in the mind of God before the world began. Dr. Badawi's "interpretation" makes Jesus' words meaningless here.

c) The Revised Standard Version of the Bible was translated before many ancient manuscripts were known, it was translated by people who did not necessarily believe it was the truthful word of God. So it is unclear why Dr. Badawi does not prefer a more accurate translation. By the way, in Qur'anic English translations, translating from the "Arberry translation" is inferior to translating from A. Yusuf Ali or other official translations from the religious authorities Saudi Arabia.

d) John Fenton was not a conservative Christian scholar, but a heretic. We could quote about Islam from the "Muslim" Elijah Mohammed (founder of the racist Black Muslim sect) too, but that would not be any more honest.

e) It is good that Dr. Badawi agrees the New Testament puts Jesus in a different category than other prophets. The Jews have been waiting for the Messiah, and they know this "one Messiah" would have characteristics foretold in Isaiah, Jeremiah, Daniel, Zechariah.

f) Perfect can mean different things, but Christians calling Jesus the one and only Messiah, or the Son of God does not hinge on words like "perfect", but rather on words such as "son of God".

g) Jesus said otherwise. In John 3:16,18 and 1 John 4:9 Jesus showed He was uniquely the son of God.

h) If Badawi declares Jesus' meaning in John 14:6 is not what Christians think, then we commend Dr. Badawi for at least accepting that John 14:6 was genuinely spoken by Jesus. While John 14:6 is not a verse to prove the Trinity, it proves that no one can go to Heaven who refuses Jesus. If you reject Jesus' words, you are rejecting Jesus according to John 14:23-24.

Tape #8 Did Jesus Claim Divinity? Other Claims, Jesus Denies Godhead

a) Badawi does not believe Jesus said the words in Mark 13 about the generation passing away, because he says the prophecy did not come true.

b) Badawi dismisses all Bible passages where Jesus is worshipped (such as Hebrews 1:6) because the word "worship" only means "intense love".

c) Since Badawi does not believe the Trinity he does not understand Bible passages that discuss the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:19).

d) Jesus and God are not equal. 1 Corinthians 11:3 (the head of Christ is God")

e) 1 Corinthians 8:6 ("One God", "One Lord Jesus") Badawi says this shows a clear distinction between God and Jesus.

f) Matthew 23:8-10, Badawi says Jesus directly denied he was God here because he shows the distinction between them. Badawi draws the distinction between "Master" which he says does not mean God and the "Father" which is God.

g) James 1:13 ("God cannot be tempted with evil.") Badawi says therefore Jesus cannot be God because he was tempted with evil in Matthew 4 and Luke 4.

h) Mark 13:32 ("Son does not know the hour") Badawi says this shows Jesus cannot be God.

i) Mark 13:32,35 Badawi says Jesus cannot be God because God does not pray to God.

j) Badawi says Jesus didn't even know what was going to happen to him (Jesus) in Mark 14:36 whether he would be crucified or not or something else; therefore Jesus could not be God.

k) Badawi quotes what he calls "devout Christians" such as Jehovah's Witnesses, Rev. Armstrong, Unitarians, and liberals throughout his tapes to back up his arguments. Here he quotes from John Hick from his book "The Myth of God Incarnate."

a) The word can be "race", not just "generation", and the Jewish race would be preserved through history until all this was fulfilled. Perhaps Badawi did not know this because while footnotes in modern Bibles mention this, but the outdated, RSV, upon which Badawi seems to rely, does not.

b) If Badawi himself really believed his own words, then he would have no problem with Muslims as well as Christians "worshipping" Jesus at least in some sense and calling Jesus "their Lord". Thomas called Jesus "my Lord and my God" in John 20:28. We commend Badawi for acknowledging that Muslims ought to be calling Jesus their Lord (meaning master in Matthew 23:8-10), if that is what he is really saying.

c) Many who reject the Trinity either ignorantly misunderstand, or deliberately distort what it means. If someone says the Trinity teaches multiple gods, that is as false as saying mainstream Islam teaches worship of Mohammed. The Trinity teaches one inseparable God in three distinct persons.

d) There is no difference in nature (Philippians 2:6-7) or our honor of one over the other John 5:18-23). There is a difference in role and rank. Besides this passage, note that the Father sent the Son, and the Son never sent the Father. On earth the son obeyed the Father (Hebrews 5:8), not the other way around.

e) The term "God" in the Bible sometimes means just Jesus, sometimes just the Father, one time just the Spirit, and sometimes all Three. This passage does indeed show a distinction (but not separation) between the Father and Son.

f) Apparently in Badawi's misconception of the Trinity, the fact of a distinction between the Father and "Master" (Jesus), proves the Master is not God. Again, a distinction between them is a fundamental core of the true Trinity doctrine, and the only contradiction is in Badawi's misconception.

g) If Jesus had only a divine nature Badawi would be correct. However, Jesus was human too, and as a human, Jesus was tempted.

h) On earth, Jesus did not know the hour of His return because 2 Philippians 2:7 and John 17:5 show that Jesus voluntarily emptied Himself of much of His divine glory when He came to earth.

i) Behind this objection is a major Muslim misunderstanding of the true place of prayer. If you are a Muslim, for the sake of argument assume for a second that the Trinity was True. Then on earth, if Jesus had any communication with the Father, would that somehow show Jesus was not God!? Prayer is communication of the highest kind. On earth, Jesus, being both human and divine, probably had genuine communication with God (Father and Spirit) more than anyone else before or since.

j) I do not know what Bible in what language Badawi was getting this from, but this is not in Greek, English, or anything else I am aware of. Jesus knew the impending "cup" of His crucifixion, but Jesus was asking if it were possible that there could be any other way.

k) If we wanted to be as "honest" as Dr. Badawi's statement, would could quote heretical Sufi, Bektashi, 'Alawite, and other "Ghulat" sources with no qualifications except saying only they were devout Muslims. People do make mistakes though, and perhaps this was just an accident on Badawi's part.

Tape #9 Responses to Objections and Biblical Parallels

a) Badawi here reiterates his apologetic of negation as he calls it and denial of basic Christian beliefs. Badawi attacks the deity of Christ and says this is supported by "the context of the Bible."

b) John 14:28 ("My Father is greater than I") Badawi uses this verse to attack the deity of Christ and says any other explanation is illogical.

c) Badawi denies the God-man nature of Christ. Badawi does not accept the dual nature of Christ being 100% man and 100% God.

d) Badawi says the term "Father" used by Jesus means "Creator" and Jesus, by using the term is simply acknowledging that he is a creature and a servant of the Creator.

e) Badawi says Christians are guilty of "prior theological commitment" rather than using direct information.

f) Badawi says Jesus was not unique because

f1) Jesus had a mother

f2) Other prophets in the Bible did miracles

f3) Brought a message like the other prophets

g) Badawi says the virgin birth of Jesus does not prove the divinity of Jesus because look at Melchizedek (Hebrews 7:1-3) was without father or mother, look at Adam, look at Eve.

a) Badawi does not correctly define the Trinity before he tries to refute it. Perhaps Badawi should say that the Bible does not support His misconception of the Trinity.

b) Dr. Badawi uses a selective reading of the Bible. For example, he did in other places deal with a few specious arguments supporting the Trinity, but Badawi did not deal with the main verses showing the Trinity and that Jesus is God.

For example, he uses John 14:28 (The Father is greater than I), which refers both to Christ on earth after He emptied Himself, and Christ's role being sent by the Father, but he "forgot" to also quote

John 5:18,23 about all must honor the Son just as they honor the Father, and whoever does not, does not honor the Father who sent Him. When Thomas called Jesus "my Lord and My God", and Jesus commended Him, Badawi again "forgot" to even bring that up!

c) It is unclear whether Badawi simply denies the dual nature of Christ, or else Badawi fundamentally does not understand it, or else Badawi has chosen to not understand it. As long as Badawi does not understand that Almighty God is not prevented from sending Jesus as fully God and fully man, and that one Almighty inseparable God is not prevented from being Three distinct persons, we understand why Badawi does not understand it.

d) If Badawi himself really thought Jesus' use of the word Father was proper because it simply meant Creator, then we commend Badawi for saying Muslims should use the word "Father" for God also.

e) That's not like the pot calling the kettle black. Rather, that is like the pot calling the rest of the world black. Badawi cannot accept the Bible was preserved by God due to prior theological commitment, and Badawi cannot even understand the Trinity (let alone accept it) due to prior theological commitment. While we have not seen every single tape Badawi has made, we have yet to see a tape where Badawi clearly, thoroughly, and correctly explains the Trinity before he attacks it. We think he might be able to do so.

f) This argument is quite surprising. With just as much justification, one could add to Badawi's list that Jesus had a mind, feelings, skin, etc. The truth is, if someone had some attributes that were not unique, that would not detract from the attributes that were unique. Also, this argument again shows a lack of understanding that Jesus is 100% man as well as 100% God.

g) Perhaps Badawi did not realize that the Book of Hebrews uses Melchizedek as a type of Christ, or an appearance of Christ prior to the incarnation. Adam and Eve had unusual creations, but they were not virgin births. However, when Badawi says virgin birth of itself does not prove divinity, on one hand he is absolutely correct here. On the other hand, I have never heard it as an argument by Christians to prove the Trinity.

Tape #10 Deification of Jesus: Its Evolution I, No Basis for the "Trinity"; Disciples to Paul

a) Badawi begins his "negating the Trinity" attacks on this tape. Badawi says 1 John 5:7 does not belong in the Bible. Badawi quotes from a Jehovah's Witness Bible in relation to 1 John 5:7.

b) Badawi says the Trinity has no foundation in either the Old Testament or the New Testament.

c) Badawi is constantly saying his contentions are backed up by "Biblical Scholars" but he never quotes more than one and he never quotes any Biblical Scholars that actually believe what the Bible teaches.

d) Badawi, without giving documentation for where this story comes from, says the apostle Paul wanted to get married to an actress Popea who was the daughter of the High Priest of the Jews. Popea refused Paul's marriage proposal and went instead to Rome for an acting career where she ended up getting married to the Roman Emperor. This incident took place at the same time when Paul converted to Christianity meaning Paul was under mental distress.

e) Badawi says Paul got to know Barnabas without whom Paul never would have been accepted in the Christian community.

f) Badawi says Barnabas was "the most important disciple of Jesus"

a) Rejecting a passage that is generally rejected today does not negate everything else. We have numerous Bible manuscripts of 1 John 5:6-8, and 1 John 5:7 is not in any manuscript before the 12th century. (It was added later in the margin in a 10th century manuscript.) It is in a total of only 8 late manuscripts. Badawi is correct, this was not in the original Bible, but he could know this simply from reading the footnotes in the NIV Bible, and noting the verses go from 5:6 to 5:8.

b) Badawi here says there is no foundation in the Old or New Testaments. If the New Testament taught one God (1 Corinthians 8:6 mentioned in tape #8 point e), and if the same New Testament writer also taught the deity of Christ, that would be a foundation for the Trinity in the New Testament. I would like to introduce a Muslim teacher who says the New Testament teaches the deity of Christ. - Jamal Badawi.

In the next tape (Tape 11), points e and f (as we list the points), Dr. Badawi accuses Paul of "innovations" and criticizes Paul for allegedly lying about the deification of Jesus, among other things. Accusing Paul of lying in teaching the deification of Christ is a very serious charge, but Dr. Badawi is at least admitting Paul taught the deification of Christ. With this admission by Dr. Badawi that Paul taught the deification of Christ and also taught only one God gives himself the some of foundation of the Trinity in the New Testament he has so earnestly looking for.

Even though the New Testament is much clearer, here are verses for a foundation of the Trinity using just the Old Testament.

Proverbs 30:4f "Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His [God's] name, and the name of His son, tell me if you know." gives a hint that there is a son for the one who established the ends of the earth

Joel 2:27; Psalm 83:18

Deuteronomy 4:35-39

Deuteronomy 6:4 - The Hebrew word for "indivisible one" is not used here, but rather a broader word.

2 Samuel 7:22

Isaiah 42:10-12; 44:6-8,24

Isaiah 45:5-14; 46:9

Here are verses for a foundation for the Trinity from just the New Testament.

There is and forever will be only One inseparable True God, existing in Three distinct persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. James 2:19; John 5:9; 17:3

One God. There is none in the universe before, after, or besides Yahweh. 1 Timothy 1:17; 6:15-16

Inseparable. Matthew 28:19; John 10:27-30; 12:44-46; John 14:9-11,23; 15:26; 16:15; 17:10; Romans 8:9-11

Distinct. Matthew 3:6-17; Mark 1:10-11; Luke 3:21-22; John 14:31; 15:26; 16:28; Acts 5:31-32

The Father is God. 1 Peter 1:3; Titus 1:4; Ephesians 1:3;3:14;4:6;5:20; Philippians 2:11; John 8:54; Philemon 3; 1 Thessalonians 1:3

Son is God. Hebrews 1:8-9; John 1:1,18; 20:28; Hosea 1:7; Isaiah 7:14; 1 John 5:11,12,21; Colossians 2:9; Matthew 1:23

Spirit is God. Romans 8:9-16; Luke 1:35; 1 John 4:12,13,15-16; 1 Corinthians 3:16+6:19; Acts 5:3-4

Co-equal in nature/essence like a father and son. Colossians 2:9-10; ~1:19; Philippians 2:6-7

Differ in role/rank like a father and son. 1 Corinthians 11:3; 15:28; Matthew 12:18; Ephesians 1:17; John 14:28

The Father is (even now) Jesus' God. John 20:17; 1 Corinthians 11:3; 2 Corinthians 1:3; Romans 15:6; Ephesians 1:3; Hebrews 1:9; 1 Peter 1:3; Revelation 1:6; 3:2,12. All must honor the Son just as the Father. John 5:18,23

Jesus existed before the world. John 1:1-15; 17:5,24; Hebrews 7:3. He will not change. Hebrews 13:8

Jesus is not just God's son, but God's one and only begotten Son. John 3:16,18; 1 John 4:9

Jesus was and still is 100% God and man in one person. Philippians 2:5-8; Romans 9:5; Hebrews 1:9;2:17-18; 4:15; 1 Corinthians 15:21. The Father is in Him yet did not become Him. John 14:10-26; 15:1

He never sinned. He submitted, was tested, suffered, tempted, and learned obedience. 2 Corinthians 5:21; Hebrews 2:10,18; 4:15; 5:7-9; 9:26; 12:2; Romans 1:3-4;5:15-19; John 8:46; 12:49; Philippians 2:8;1Pet1:19

He is the image of God. 2 Corinthians 4:4; Colossians 1:15; 2:9. We see the Father through Him. John 14:7-10

c) When we have tapes on Muslim teaching, we try to document the sources of our information. That courtesy to the viewers allows them to "check up" on everything we are saying, and they do not have to accept what Islam teaches on our own [limited] authority, but on the authoritative Muslim writings themselves.

d) I have read much of the early church fathers, and I have seen either this, or even a refutation of this. Later Muslims made up many hadiths about Mohammed that are universally acknowledged by Muslims as false, and perhaps this falls in that category, but I do not know when prior to the 20th century this was made up.

There is a Biblical term for what Badawi is saying about Paul. Casting aspersions on someone with no evidence whatsoever is called slander.

e) Barnabas was influential in introducing Paul to the other apostles, but that point is neither here nor there.

f) Badawi has no genuine basis for saying this. His false basis for saying this is that Badawi has the crazy belief in a Medieval Italian forgery called the Gospel of Barnabas was authentic. Among other things, it mentions knights, sailing from Palestine to the inland city of Jerusalem and calls Mohammed the Messiah and says Jesus was not, contrary to the Qur'an.

Tape #11 Deification of Jesus " Its Evolution II, Paul's Role, Early Unitarians

a) Badawi says there were two giants of the Christian faith : Paul and Barnabas

b) Badawi says that Paul was not an eye witness of Jesus but Barnabas was (Galatians 1:11-20; Acts 9:1)

c) Badawi says Paul "compromised" and "claimed things".

d) Badawi says that Paul later wanted to get rid of Barnabas so he could say the ideas were his. (Acts 15:36-41)

e) Paul introduced "innovations" and the Apostle Peter went along with Paul on this, with the support of Luke - Badawi says.

f) Badawi says Paul knew he was lying about blood atonement, deification of Jesus, etc. but taught it anyway.

g) By early and original Christian standards and doctrines, Badawi says Paul was a heretic.

h) Badawi says "many scholars and historians" say Paul was a heretic and introduced "innovations" which were not true.

i) Badawi says the original Apostolic Church of Christians was Unitarian and not Trinitarian.

a) Once again Badawi has a mixed up trust in the medieval forgery of the Gospel of Barnabas, which contradicts the Qur'an as well as the Bible. While Paul was a giant, Peter, John, and others cannot be ignored either.

b) Paul was an eyewitness of Jesus on the road to Damascus.

c) Badawi apparently is slandering Paul again. He has no evidence to back up this claim. Badawi should say, "In my opinion Paul made things up", since he has no basis whatsoever for this.

d) Paul and Barnabas did have a disagreement, but it was stated to be over Mark, and not getting rid of Barnabas. Again either Badawi has to provide some backing (and there is none), or Badawi is guilty of slander against them.

e) The things in Paul's teaching Badawi would object to the most, the crucifixion, resurrection, Jesus' blood paying for our sins, are all in the gospels. Badawi needs to find a teaching unique to Paul, and second he has to prove that it is an innovation.

f) My goodness, if Badawi says Paul was lying here, then Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, etc. were all lying too. Why not just simply say everybody God spoke through was a liar, and/or everybody's words were corrupted?

This is part of Dr. Badawi's flipflop mentioned in tape #8. If Dr. Badawi says Paul "lied" about teaching the deification of Christ, then Dr. Badawi acknowledging that Paul taught only one God, is a key part of a foundation for the Trinity, contrary to what Dr. Badawi said in tape #10.

g) The very earliest Christian work we have outside of the Bible is the First Letter of Clement to the Corinthians 97/98 A.D. One can summarize the book as "why aren't you doing the things Paul told you to do 50 years ago." Steve has read most of the Christian literature up to 325 A.D., If Badawi is not deliberately lying, he is clearly outside is expertise here.

h) Sure, many Muslim or other non-Christian "scholars" say Paul was a heretic. However, many Christian scholars and historians say that Mohammed was a heretic relative to the teaching of the Old and New Testaments. If you tried to categorize the genuinely original teachings of Paul, they would be far, far less than that what many would consider the innovator of innovators, Mohammed.

i) No, even as far back as 1 Clement (97/98 A.D.), it showed the relationship between the Father, Son, and Spirit. Ignatius of Antioch wrote many times of Jesus as "God", and he was a disciple of John the apostle. The term "Trinity" was used by Theophilus of Antioch 168-181/188 A.D. There were "Ebionites" who were half-Jewish, half-Christian heretics, but they were never recognized by the church except in a negative sense.

Tape #12 Deification of Jesus : Its Evolution III, Early Unitarians, Council of Nicea

a) Badawi says all of the early and original Christians were non-Trinitarian, Unitarians. It was not until the pagan Roman Emperor Constantine came to power and forced the notion of the "Trinity" on the people.

b) Badawi says a Great Christian Unitarian champion named Arius was persecuted by Bishop Alexander who could not refute Arius' great arguments. Badawi gives a history of Arius and says that Arius used logical reason in his arguments but his Trinitarian adversaries use faulty contradictions that could not hold up.

c) Badawi states that there is a "tremendous difference" between a Unitarian God and a Trinitarian God.

d) Badawi gives his so-called "unbiased" version of the Council of Nicea 325 A.D.

d1) Somehow Badawi thinks the Council had 270 different Gospels there. That is actually the number of people who were there.

d2) The Council was under pressure to pass a Trinity doctrine by Constantine.

d3) The Council "canonized" some of the 270 Gospels including their version of the Gospel of John and burned all of the other manuscript Gospels.

d4) In Badawi's version, the Council approved of the Trinity despite there being NO conclusive evidence for the doctrine.

d5) The Council approved that the Holy Spirit was God despite [allegedly] no evidence for this.

a) Badawi is 170 years out of date on the

Trinity, and more out of date than that on the deity of Christ. We first find the term "Trinity" in the writings of Theophilus of Antioch, (168-181/188 A.D.). The curious thing about this reference is that he mentions the Trinity assuming the readers were already familiar with the term. Irenaeus, a disciple of Ignatius mentioned earlier, disciple of the apostle John, also wrote about the deity of Christ.

Is this a Unitarian Statement? "As a king sends his son, who is also a king, so sent He Him; as God He sent Him; as to men He sent Him; as a Saviour He sent Him." This c.130 A.D. by Diognetus "a disciple of the apostle" in his Letter to Mathetes.

b) Badawi's endorsement of Arius is curious, as we were under the impression Badawi was not a heretical Muslim. Arius believed Jesus was a god (though a lesser god than the Father), and Arians had various views of Jesus being of like (though not identical) substance with the Father. Bishop Alexander was against Arius, but Athanasius had a greater role.

c) While there is truth in Badawi's point here, apparently Badawi says this because he sees no difference between the Trinity and polytheism.

d1) Saying there were 270 different gospels, with no evidence, is again, another slander.

Against Badawi, Irenaeus (120-202 A.D.) wrote much earlier, "She [the church] also believes these points [of doctrine] just as if she had but one soul.... For the churches which have been planted in Germany do not believe or hand down anything different nor do those in Spain nor those in Gaul, nor those in the East nor those in Egypt nor those in Libya, nor ..."

d2) Constantine obviously wanted the church to come to consensus on this, but Badawi (nor anyone else) can find evidence of any pressure, military or otherwise.

d3) So let's get this straight. Badawi is saying 270 people came with 270 gospels, and everyone (but a few) agreed to have their gospels burned? It is farfetched as an opinion, but it is slander if it is claimed as documented history.

d4) Is Badawi really saying not even among the writings of Paul? What about John, and Matthew, and Luke, and the writer of Hebrews? As for evidence of the Trinity from the Old and New Testaments in the Bible, see our previous slide.

d5) The Holy Spirit was not an important topic at the Council of Nicea. That was the Council of Constantinople in 381 A.D.

Tape #13 Other Major Councils and Later Councils

a) After the Council of Nicea in 325 A.D., the second major council of the church was held in 381 A.D. in Constantinople. This council reiterated that the Holy Spirit was divine.

b) The third major council was help in Ephesus in 431 A.D. to clarify the divinity and humanity of Jesus and to condemn Nestorius.

c) The fourth major council was held in Chalcedon in 451 A.D. which sided with the "theory" that Jesus had two natures but those two natures are united without change, without division, and without separation. Badawi says this doctrine is blasphemy because it is saying God died on the cross.

d) The fifth major council was the Second Council in Constantinople which took place in 553 A.D. and Badawi goes on to list a few more councils and conferences.

e) Badawi talks about how the rise of Islam comes along to clarify things. Badawi says the Council of Nicea and others were "innovations".

f) Badawi lists sins of Christians including icon worship, selling forgiveness (he says no on can forgive sins including Jesus Mark 2:5-12), and the Crusades - Badawi says the Muslim rulers were more humane than the Crusader overlords.

a) Lying to the Holy Spirit is lying to God way back in Acts 5:3-4. 1 Corinthians 3:16 plus 1 Corinthians 6:19 also shows the Holy Spirit is God.

Long before this council, Irenaeus (120-202 A.D.) wrote, "Know thou that every man is either empty or full. For if he has not the Holy Spirit, he has no knowledge of the Creator; he has not received Jesus Christ the life; he knows not the Father who is in heaven;..." (Against Heresies 3:16)

b) Nestorius had some strange views of the two minds of the human Jesus and the divine Jesus cohabiting one body.

c) By what innovative standard does Badawi call things blasphemy? The Qur'an teaches blasphemy according to the Bible, and our Bible teaches blasphemy according to the Qur'an. Jesus was 100% human as well as divine, and yes Jesus Christ did really die on the cross.

d) Early Islam had an "analog" to councils too, with Kharijites, followers of 'Ali, etc. except these are not called peaceful councils; they were bloody battles.

e) 'Uthman's standardizing the Qur'an was not done in a "council fashion" either. The major doctrines in these councils have their basis in the Bible, though some of the later councils did add other traditions. Many human traditions were added to Christianity in the Catholic and Orthodox churches. While neither Muslims nor us approve of that, Muslims should at least be able to understand it, because they have their own hadiths added to Islam centuries after Mohammed.

f) Badawi on some of these points is correct unfortunately. However, if you compare the worst of the Crusader rulers with the worst of the Muslim rulers, I think you would see little difference between them. Whether someone made a mound of 70,000 skulls of men, women and children of Isfahan (as the mosque-builder Tamerlane did), or wiped out smaller villages with no mound of skulls, is a small difference. Hopefully we can agree that none of them were even remotely close to following the true God.

Tape #14 Later Unitarians - Servetus and Francis David

a) Badawi talks about he Spanish Inquisition and how it forced people to worship the Trinity.

b) Badawi here gives a very biased and sympathetic sob story about the anti-Trinitarian Servetus and his execution.

c) Badawi alleges that Trinitarians "really believe in three Gods".

d) Badawi says the Trinity is impossible and the Bible does not support it.

e) Badawi says a non-Trinitarian named Francis David from the 1500's A.D. won all his debates and said Trinitarians believed in three or four Gods.

f) Badawi says Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons are Christians.

a) Nope, the Spanish Inquisition was not about the Trinity. It tortured Trinity-believing Protestants just as much as Muslims and Jews. Rather, the Spanish Inquisition forced people to become Catholic.

b) Servetus was unfortunately burned, but if we want to swap sob stories:

Mohammed cut off people's limbs, burned out their eyes, and made them die of thirst. See Bukhari vol.9:117; vol.6:198 prior, as well as Fiqh us-Sunnah vol.1 p.133.

Sahih Muslim vol.1 p.315 speaks of burning down the houses of people who missed prayer.

Al-Hakim, a crazy Muslim Caliph who emulating Nero, burned down the entire Jewish quarter in Cairo.

c) We do not believe in three gods. Obeying, loving, or serving one is the same as all three.

d) We already showed the Bible strongly supports the Trinity. Badawi has a more fundamental objection here though. The infinite, all-powerful God is not powerful enough, or great enough to be something bigger than what I can imagine in my own mind.

e) Often the winner of a debate is in the eyes of the beholder. How Badawi could see that he "proved" Christians worship three or especially four gods is beyond me.

f) Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons came out of Christianity, but they are no more Christian than the Druze and Bektashi are Muslim. The Druze worship al-Hakim as visible God, and the Bektashi believe in a Trinity and reincarnation.

Tape #15 Later Unitarians : Sozini, Socianus, to John Briddle

a) Badawi says the Trinity doctrine is a result of pagan philosophy.

b) Badawi says there is no evidence in the Bible that Jesus is divine

c) Badawi relates the lives and struggles of Sozini and Socinius who in Badawi's eyes were heroes fighting against "innovations" in Christian doctrine. They lived around 1605 A.D., but one wonders why Badawi quotes these non-Muslims almost 1000 years after Mohammed.

d) Badawi says that these champions fought against the idea of Jesus' death atoning for sins. Some of their arguments were as follows:

d1) Jesus, a mere man, could not die and atone for all the sins of all the masses of humans on earth.

d2) If Jesus died for sins, then everyone is okay and does not need to obey God's commands.

d3) If Jesus paid the debt owed to God, then God has no authority over man for anything because the debt has already been paid by Jesus.

d4) Jesus is not a word made flesh and did not exist before he was created and simply received restoration from his Creator.

e) Badawi says the official Christian church could not refute Sozini or Socinius with scripture or logical arguments but simply condemned them as heretics.

f) Badawi says the Holy Spirit is the angel "Gabriel".

g) Badawi praises the anti-Trinitarian John Briddle (circa 1662) and gives some of Briddle's simple arguments against the Holy Spirit being God:

g1) The Old Testament says the Holy Spirit is given by God, therefore the Holy Spirit is distinct from God and therefore cannot be God.

g2) To talk of difference of being (essence) and person in the nature of God is to talk of God impersonally and since God is a person, this is impossible.

g3) John 16:13 says the Holy Spirit only speaks what He hears from God and therefore cannot be God.

g4) In John 16:14 he says the Holy Spirit "Receives" and therefore cannot be God.

g5) Anyone that is sent by another cannot be God.

g6) The Holy Spirit is a gift and therefore cannot be God.

g7) The Holy Spirit prays and therefore cannot be divine.

g8) Anyone who has a will independent of God cannot be God. (Romans 8:26-27)

g9) Badawi claims no one was ever able to refute Briddle.

a) Despite the evidence of the Threeness and Trinity in the Bible (given earlier), Badawi's theory is fascinating, as many of Mohammed's teachings are also said to be derived from pagan philosophy. For example, the Qur'an even mentions the daughters of Allah.

b) Jesus was no mere man. We already went over the many evidences in the Bible that teach Jesus is divine. Suffice it to say, that since the Bible says:

Jesus is God (John 20:28; 1:1; Hebrews 1:8-9; 2 Corinthians 11:3; Titus 2:13)

Jesus is the same nature as God (Philippians 2:6-7)

Jesus has the fullness of God (Colossians 1:19)

Jesus was specifically prayed to (Acts 7:59)

Jesus accepted worship (Matthew 2:2; 8:2; 14:33; 28:17; 29:9; Luke 24:52; John 9:38)

Jesus forgave sins only God could forgive. (Matthew 9:2-6; Mark 2:5-12, and Luke 5:20-23; 7:48-50)

Jesus said He existed before the world began (John 8:58)

Jesus never said he was "innocent" of the charge of claiming to be God. (John 10:33; 20:28)

If a person says there is no evidence in the Bible that Jesus is divine, we can at least agree it is impossible for any evidence that could prove to them that Jesus is divine.

c) These men would be considered heretics (or worse) for their views on Jesus by both Muslims too (Badawi excepted)

d1) But if Jesus were not just a mere man, but also God, then the argument has an invalid pre-supposition.

d2) All genuine Christians that Jesus' death for all mankind does not give salvation to those who reject God's grace. Furthermore, no salvation is given to man at all, except through Jesus.

d3) Jesus paid a tremendous price for humanities sins, but that payment is not applied to those who do not want it applied.

d4) Badawi did say earlier that Jesus was a word from Allah though. (Tape #5 in this series, Comparative Christology I). He has to, because Sura 3:45; 4:171 say so. Sahih Muslim vol.1:22 also goes into more detail.

e) Modern Christians take no credit for being the first to show from the Bible that Jesus is God, because apart from the Bible, Ignatius, Irenaeus, Polycarp, Tertullian, Novatian, Hippolytus, and others already beat us to it 1700-1900 years earlier.

f) Like Badawi, many Muslims consider the Holy Spirit and Gabriel the same. This is not universal though, because the Qur'an does not really explain the Holy Spirit. Yet in the next tape (point c), Badawi says that Unitarians who taught the Holy Spirit is just a force had the original apostolic teaching.

So does Badawi believe:

f1) Like many Muslims that the Holy Spirit is Gabriel

f2) The Unitarians had the original apostolic teaching that the Holy Spirit is a force

f3) He is just trying to say anything to attack the Holy Spirit and the Trinity.

g) Note that argument 1-6, are "restriction" arguments. Almighty God, the Holy Spirit, is "restricted" from being God, because the Holy Spirit has some attribute. Briddle never gave the basis for who or what restricted the Omnipotent God from this.

7. There is communication of feelings and thoughts among the Trinity, and whether you call it prayer, interceding, or something else, is semantics.

8. The Holy Spirit does not have an independent (separate) will from God. Rather, the Father, Son, and Spirit, are distinct, but not separate.

9. We only quickly outlined a refutation of Briddle here, because most good books on the Trinity have already refuted him.

Tape #16 Later Unitarians - Emlyn, Lindsey to Joseph Priestly

a) Badawi continues to praise Unitarians who attacked Christian dogmas. Badawi also brings up Matthew 19:16-17 about "none good but God"

b) Badawi brings up John 14:28 "My Father is greater than I"

c) Badawi claims the late 18th century Unitarians such as Lindsey, who said the Holy Spirit was just a force and not a personality, had the original Apostolic teaching.

d) Badawi argues against Jesus being God as if he were reading from a Jehovah's Witness book.

e) Badawi alleges, "outside of John 1:1, 14" the Bible never shows Jesus to be God."

f) Badawi claims that Unitarianism is true Christianity, not Trinity.

g) Badawi says that Christian theology is mixed with heathen philosophy - particularly Greek ideas of logos.

a) Badawi correctly observes that Jesus was careful in His use of the word good. Yet Jesus explicitly calls Himself the good shepherd in John 10:11. When the man lightly called Jesus "good teacher", Jesus only questioned why the man acknowledged Jesus as called good; Jesus never denied He was good.

In the Bible, 2 Corinthians 5:21, Hebrews 4:15, and 1 Peter 1:18-19 say that Jesus had no sin.

Jesus even asked in John 8:46a, "Can any of you prove me guilty of sin?"

The Muslim hadiths say Jesus was untouched by sin in Sahih Muslim vol.4:5837 (p.1261), Bukhari vol.4:641 p.426, and Bukhari vol.4:506 (p.324).

b) In many ways the Father was greater than Jesus, - on earth. Remember, Jesus had voluntarily emptied Himself of much of His divine glory. Even in Heaven, the Father and Jesus have different roles, the closest analog we can observe to that is a father and son relationship on earth.

c) For Dr Badawi to honestly say that, he needs to find an apostle, or a disciple of an apostle that said that. We have both apostles (such as John and Paul) and disciples of the apostle (Ignatius, etc.) that say otherwise. Not only do the Bible and early Christian writings show the worship of Jesus but even a hostile, pagan writer, Lucian the satirist, in the second century said, "The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day - the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account.... You see, these misguided creatures..." (Death of Peregrine 11)

Many people (not only Muslims) tend to believe any argument, no matter how little proof is given, if it coincides with what they already believe, yet demand a great burden of proof for arguments that have a conclusion they disagree with. One mark of being objective is to require the same level of evidence for arguments both pro and con.

Finally, we must note that most Muslims would call Badawi wrong here. They believe the Holy Spirit is the archangel Gabriel.)

d) Whether Badawi was explicitly taking things from the Jehovah's Witnesses or not, some Muslims do in fact take arguments from the JW's.

e) Would you like to see the words that Jesus is God, or the demonstration through worship and other actions?


John 8:58 Jesus used the most holy Divine name

John 10:33 those who heard Jesus firsthand understood that He said He was God. When they told Jesus what they understood, Jesus did not disagree.

John 20:28 Thomas said to Jesus, "my Lord and my God"


Jesus accepted worship (Matthew 8:2; 14:33; 28:9,17; Luke 24:52; John 9:38

God sent the wise men to worship baby Jesus (Matthew 2:2)

Jesus would send His angels in Matthew 13:41, which are the angels of God (Luke 12:8-9; 15:10).

Please see the page "Proving for Muslims that Jesus is God (and Lord)" for much more info on www.muslimhope.com

f) Is Dr. Badawi converting to Unitarianism? Unitarians believe all religions lead to God, which the vast majority of Muslims deny. (I do not know if Badawi agrees with the vast majority of Muslims on this point or not, because if he did, he would not say Unitarians are close to the true followers of Christ.)

g) Dr. Badawi is astounding! The concept of Jesus being a/the "word" is in the Qur'an (Sura 3:45; 4:171). If the logos doctrine were pagan philosophy, Dr. Badawi would be teaching the Qur'an has been mixed with pagan philosophy too!

In fact, Badawi's arguments, rather than being exclusively Muslim, are constantly dependent on a Christian Unitarian concept of thought.


This is the end of this volume: Package VIII

"Series K. Jesus Beloved Messenger of Islam by Jamal A. Badawi

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